USA's in for it

just watched the weather...another hurricanes supposed to hit new Orleans and the oil refineries on the gulf coast. some people are projecting if some get danaged enough the demand for gas will be so bad it will go to 5$ a gallon. I think i speak for everyone in saying affording that will be hell...along with the world as it is right now. any input on this?

Well, you might end up having to lower yourself to using cars that go 30 miles per gallon not 10...finally.

American Electric Vehicle — Kurrent
Update: Defunct, according to a comment below, although they seem to still be for sale. We’re looking into it.
AEV advises its potential drivers to “Slow down,” which seems like wise advice, given the golf cart-inspired design. Still, it’s ridiculously cheap.
Fuel type: All-electric
Price: $10K
Range / top speed: 40 miles / 25mph
Release date: Available now

Commuter Cars — Tango T600
The Tango is even odder than three-wheeled designs, in some ways: It’s less than half the width of a normal car, and two can fit in a single lane. It also accelerates like a bat out of hell. Future versions are planned to be much cheaper, and have longer ranges.
Fuel type: All-electric
Price: $108K
Range / top speed: 80 miles / 150mph
Funding: Less than $1 million in angel backing; open to venture funding.
Release date: Available now

Global Electric Motorcars (GEM) — e2
GEM is actually a division of Chrysler, the company has the look and feel (not to mention, apparently, the limited funding) of a startup. Its vehicles resemble golf carts, and are likely used for many of the same functions.
Fuel type: All-electric
Price: $7K
Range / top speed: 35 miles / 25mph
Release date: Available now

Phoenix Motorcars — Sport Utility Truck / SUV
No cars here, just trucks and SUVs. The company will have an extended-range battery option for 250 miles later in 2008.
Fuel type: All-electric
Price: $45K
Range / top speed: 130 miles / 95mph
Release date: Mid-2008

Don't worry Z, it is coming...

Major Zeman wrote:

Well, you might end up having to lower yourself to using cars that go 30 miles per gallon not 10...finally.

Yup, finally. I was kind of dissapointed when oil prces went down. Maybe one more tragedy will do the trick.

Hah, electric vehicles. Or hybrids with fuel consumption 20mpg. That's stupid. Why wait for hybrids or electric to get advanced enough to be practically use-able, when both Europe and Asia can make a car that has 30mpg for 10 years at least already?

I feel for New Orleans But in honestly its the settlers Fualt, they settled in a bowl with water over them and its cuased a serious problm for the swamps ithe gul is moving inland due to soil erosion which means Lousiana , Mississipi < Aere losing their land at a increasing rate

Foolish building and destruction has cuased enviromental disaster in that area and the storms dont help

30 MPG cars? The only European car that REALLY (statistically speaking after actual road trials) can achieve that number and be at the shining top seed is the MINI Cooper. The rest, REALLY, goes to Asian market; they are just better, let's face it. But, let's not run too fast, shall we? An average Corolla is getting 24-25 MPG with an A/C on, but it is in the top of 30 MPG cars.
Must I also add that such manufacturers as Chevrolet, Dodge, Mercury, Pontiac (basically GM divisions), Chrysler (oups, Europe couldn’t keep it's market and sold it to Americans) and Ford have cars which consumption ranges from 30 to 39 MPG... so saying that only Europe and Asia build economic cars - simply stupid. The question here is not about how economic or smart engines are; the question lies in American lifestyle. I simply know that an average American just does not desire to drive in a "death trap". Try raising a family of 5 with such car. It is called: choice - not engineering. Plus low MPG models are low profit in America, so why bother?
On the other hand, it would be stupid to try and hold the progress. I mean why drive a car that can run 30 MPG and 10 years old, put even 40 MPG and 5 years, when cars that can run as much as 60-70 MPG can be manufactured? Why keep it small and compact if they have plenty of space and can afford a crushing electric SUV. Just look at the last model my data presented, you will be impressed. It is an untapped technology - untapped market. Perhaps Europe and Asia should concentrate on that; show US their genius minds. Or is it stupid, Z?

of course i mean america has also been capable of building 30+ mpg cars in the past but the demand was low cuz gas was low. its not that were behind the world its that now that were more like the rest of the world we need to start doing what theyre doing (getting more fuel efficient cars) and car pooling bussing biking etc. are all great ideas which will also help the enviroment so in a weird kinda way this hurricane could b a good thing...

{AR}SaKre wrote:

Major Zeman wrote:

Well, you might end up having to lower yourself to using cars that go 30 miles per gallon not 10...finally.

Yup, finally. I was kind of dissapointed when oil prces went down. Maybe one more tragedy will do the trick.

seemes a bit harsh and besides...america is now into electric cars more then anyone plus hybrids and cars with 30+ mpg...but i kinda see what ur getting at with this.

Roman_Pope wrote:

30 MPG cars? The only European car that REALLY (statistically speaking after actual road trials) can achieve that number and be at the shining top seed is the MINI Cooper. The rest, REALLY, goes to Asian market; they are just better, let's face it. But, let's not run too fast, shall we? An average Corolla is getting 24-25 MPG with an A/C on, but it is in the top of 30 MPG cars.

I have no idea what "to be at shining top seed' means, but my family was having an average of 6.5l/100km (about 36MPG) with a czech-made car. Thats in a long run, the average is calculated over 4 years of using the car.

Roman_Pope wrote:

Must I also add that such manufacturers as Chevrolet, Dodge, Mercury, Pontiac (basically GM divisions), Chrysler (oups, Europe couldn’t keep it's market and sold it to Americans) and Ford have cars which consumption ranges from 30 to 39 MPG... so saying that only Europe and Asia build economic cars - simply stupid.

I'm not saying US industry can't make them - if Czechs can, why should an industry giant not be able to do the same? Still, it looks like when it comes down to making them its Europe and Asia that do it, not US...maybe because -

Roman_Pope wrote:

The question here is not about how economic or smart engines are; the question lies in American lifestyle.

With which I couldn't agree more.

Roman_Pope wrote:

I simply know that an average American just does not desire to drive in a "death trap". Try raising a family of 5 with such car. It is called: choice - not engineering.

If "death trap" refers to car actually being safe, not looking safe, then this has little to do with fuel consumption - many smaller cars have got 5 stars in euro-NCAP crash tests (even though a collision between an SUV and such car ends up in much worse mess, but thats another story). And a family of 4 can well fit into a car that runs 30+mpg (again I know from my personal experience).

and again, I agree its a choice, not technology problem.

Roman_Pope wrote:

Plus low MPG models are low profit in America, so why bother?
On the other hand, it would be stupid to try and hold the progress. I mean why drive a car that can run 30 MPG and 10 years old, put even 40 MPG and 5 years, when cars that can run as much as 60-70 MPG can be manufactured? Why keep it small and compact if they have plenty of space and can afford a crushing electric SUV. Just look at the last model my data presented, you will be impressed. It is an untapped technology - untapped market. Perhaps Europe and Asia should concentrate on that; show US their genius minds. Or is it stupid, Z?

What I call stupid is buying a hybrid that consumes 20MPG and then trying to make others believe you're behaving ecologically and economically. I can't tell anything else that "what I heard" here, but what I heard is that hybrids are very "cool & in" in US because everyone knows hybrid is ecological...but noone really cares that it may be a hybrid that still consumes more than an average non-hybrid car used in Europe or Asia.

You say Americans are not going to give up their strong cars easily - and I agree. I would think though that they're even less likely to switch to electrical ones. The electric cars are great and all but there's still too many limitations to them, most important of them being low range, recharge time and very problematic "refueling" en-route.

All in all what I was trying to point out is that Americans still have very viable way to react to rising petrol price - to use cars with lower fuel consumption. Europe can't do this that well - there's still going to be cars with lower and lower consumption, but we're close to current technological limits here. If this thread was about how Europe should deal with rising petrol prices, it would be completely different discussion, but since we're talking about a country with average car using up so much petrol to run, suggesting a way to deal with it is pretty simple.

I have no idea what "to be at shining top seed' means, but my family was having an average of 6.5l/100km (about 36MPG) with a czech-made car. Thats in a long run, the average is calculated over 4 years of using the car.

Let me explain myself. What I mean is that all the European cars are pretty small and it is not the technology that gives them a cutting edge. As you can see, the ones that consume very little are usually MINI Cooper or SMART as opposed to Mazda 3 or Corolla (Asian market). That would be the optimal choice. On the other hand, big and known names such as Opel, DAF, Saab and Volvo (Auto Group), are already owned by American stock. Even Daewoo for Christ sake! They know that small and efficient cars are "in" and "must" money makers; just not in America... for now.

Uhm... what I found amusing is czech-made car. You are aware that such thing is almost impossible today because even Skoda Auto was dealt to Volkswagen. They are "subsidiary of Volkswagen".

And a family of 4 can well fit into a car that runs 30+mpg (again I know from my personal experience).

Don't forget the dog, the BBQ, the tent, the skies and other bunch of needed stuff for a family-loving outgoing/camping. You just said the magical word: your experience. I personally saw several accidents in France involving those small cars. The scene was not pretty… and you have no idea what it is driving on American off-roads or on Quebec highways. It is a bumpy ride. What you want and do – doesn’t necessarily mean that it is what an average American does and wants. They want to hold on to their huge-ass comfy lifestyle… doesn’t matter if Africa or the rest of the world must pay. I am not saying it is right, but I can surely understand why.

What I call stupid is buying a hybrid that consumes 20MPG and then trying to make others believe you're behaving ecologically and economically.

Not stupid, but hypocritical.

too many limitations to them, most important of them being low range, recharge time and very problematic "refueling" en-route.

That is just a popular belief. There are already working prototypes, here in Canada, that give the same range as an average car! It takes only 8 minutes to recharge and cost about 3-4$ of electricity. About 100-200 such cars are running around Canada. The number is even bigger in US. The only limitations are: a) price, b) no one knows how to maintain them yet; no experience.

i go by bike, a bit slow but it gets me anywhere i want

wilk101 wrote:

{AR}SaKre wrote:

Major Zeman wrote:

Well, you might end up having to lower yourself to using cars that go 30 miles per gallon not 10...finally.

Yup, finally. I was kind of dissapointed when oil prces went down. Maybe one more tragedy will do the trick.

seemes a bit harsh and besides...america is now into electric cars more then anyone plus hybrids and cars with 30+ mpg...but i kinda see what ur getting at with this.

The truth often is harsh. Harsh mesures are sometimes needed to make a change.

I really don't care who owns the company, honestly. Makes no difference to me. Czech-made car in this context isn't so surprising term, is it? It's Škoda, originally Czech company with most cars and parts still produced in Czech Republic. But if you insist on that, I can instead talk about the car we had before which was truly czech-made even in your understanding of the word, because it was before Volkswagen ate Skoda...it did 6-6.5l/100km average over 7 years we used it.

And when I say 4 can fit in, yes it means a family of 4 can fit in with skis and equipment and food for a week, or with bikes and tent and all we needed for a week of holiday.

I think we more or less agree that the situation in America comes down to they can switch to lower consumption cars but they don't want to. And that's what might change with petrol prices rising finally.

What you say about electrical cars is pretty amazing - 8 minutes? I can't imagine what kind of battery it must be to survive an 8 minute recharge, but that takes care of refueling I guess.

yeah you know zeaman that is it i wont switch my vechiles because i like the larger cars i have a v8 305 high output it gets about 16 or so miles to the gallon in town and about 27 or 28 on highway but there is no way on gods green earth i would give up for a sub compact to get better gas milage they to me are to small and i fear that it may be my coffin someday and we are paying in canada about $5.50 a gallon of gas and my work vechicle is a pickup which actually is pretty decent on gas about 22 miles to the gallon in town close to 30 on the highway i am use to larger cars and that is probably what i will stay with. The great thing about gas and its rising cost is people are starting to find other things to run there gas engines off of so maybe soon we wont be completey dependent on gas and have other forms of fuel to use that are better for our enviroment

UK petrol price is £1.11p per litre, equivalent to $10 a gallon.

My domestic fuel bills have increased by 180%.

Stop whining til you catch up with the rest of us!

EV3RY wrote:

UK petrol price is £1.11p per litre, equivalent to $10 a gallon.

My domestic fuel bills have increased by 180%.

Stop whining til you catch up with the rest of us!

lol...im not totally sure of the ratio of liters to gallons but gas is crazy anywhere u go its just because the world is so dependant on gas. this topic wasnt honestly meant to whine and say america is crazy on gas cuz u will never see a low price for gas anywhere again those days are over (unless the world can find a better resource for power) but electricity like zeman said is very limited. without more gasoline to supply needs or a better way to power everything basically the world is stuck. now i can very easily see how gas is more expensive in the UK then in the US but no sense talking about that i totally agree that gas is horrible in the UK. and another problem is that i dont care if your car can get 80MPG...another total problem with any car is how it rips up the enviroment. thev world has no choice but to get the gas because people have places where they need to be. at that expense we empty our wallets and the enviroment pays the price. this WHOLE thing on gasoline will become a never ending cycle unless the world can figure out to get rid of (or greatly reduce) the amount of oil the world uses. you all talk about how america has lower MPG cars then other parts of the world which is true in some cases. I mean europe also has its low MPG cars as does the entire world. but you cant pin the whole blame on america because were trying to solve this problem just as much as the rest of the world and its not right to point fingures at anyone for the crisis we are in today.

And I know just a way to do... how about we send wilk to University and get him really smart, like GPA 4.0 + the best of his math, engy and chem class. Maybe then, only then we will be better equiped to save the world. What do you say? Do you really want to help the world? Because honestly, this topic is either about whining because America is crazy on gas or whine about how humanity is irresponsible with the enviroment (frankly, I don't buy that BS of selfless sacrifice for the planet and your future kids). So let us whine!

well America refusing to sign Kyoto treaty in the first place makes us some space to blame US a bit more than others. But that's irrelevant.

What you posted seemed like a whine about gas price, thus my reaction suggesting a simple solution of using the technology already well available - lower consumption cars.

Fun fact: Cars were originally sought to run on ethanol. (And still can of course) But they must have figured out it's pretty much impossible to regulate since people can just build their own still, as you can see here. Somewhat expensive but produces a pretty substantial amount of ethanol for the price and definitely pays for itself in the long run.

You can also run your car on used vegetable oil, which restaurants throw away by the dumpster full.

Major Zeman wrote:

well America refusing to sign Kyoto treaty in the first place makes us some space to blame US a bit more than others. But that's irrelevant.

Well...much easier said then done when you have a country like USA. Not as easy as just signing something away. It would be a ripple effect and a negitive one at that when you have such a country like USA. Sure they didn't sign it but for good reason. It would be better to not sign at all rather then to sign then perhaps maybe not follow the regulations of the treaty thus other countries get even madder at you.

Well, the hybrid cars give almost no advantage or saving on highways, but they are very useful in the city where due to hold-ups and traffic signals you accelerate and brake very often.

When you decelerate, you charge batteries by braking, so you get part of the energy you used to accelerate back - thus saving fuel.

When in hold-up, you can run only on the electric engine, turning off the gas engine only to recharge the battery if it gets low - this is again more effective than having the gas engine constantly at idle (and eating up some fuel) when staying in the hold-up

Yes I agree that hybrids are an useful technology, but I just refuse to call a hybrid that ends up with average consumption over 10l/100km "eco". Hybrids are great but the first step should be going for a low fuel consumption engine imo.

Of course and hybrids are certinly a step in that direction anything to use up less gasoline and help the enviroment even though some hybrids still use a ton of gasoline...its certinly a step in the right direction. But with no other alternitive atm to run cars were pretty stuck like MZ said there are still so many things you have to work out with electric cars.

I believe the electric cars have a long way to go, although 8 minutes recharge time Roman mentioned sounds great - would still like some more info about how that would be possible since all kinds of batteries I know would be killed after a few dozens cycles if recharged so quickly.

Major Zeman wrote:

Yes I agree that hybrids are an useful technology, but I just refuse to call a hybrid that ends up with average consumption over 10l/100km "eco". Hybrids are great but the first step should be going for a low fuel consumption engine imo.

Depends on type of car. Won't be good for ordinary family car, but 10l/100km would be great for 10 ton truck or for a bus :)

Major Zeman wrote:

I believe the electric cars have a long way to go, although 8 minutes recharge time Roman mentioned sounds great - would still like some more info about how that would be possible since all kinds of batteries I know would be killed after a few dozens cycles if recharged so quickly.

Currently there are no really useable batteries - either they have usable capacity, but are too heavy, or they have reasonable weight and you deplete them in 50 km
Also, recharging them is slow (many hours). I think that this problem is not only with cars, but also with laptops (2 hours runtime with battery? Transoceanic flight are much longer than that ...), PDA's, cellphones (start calling or browsing web on it and in few hours battery is dead too) and other devices. I think there were some experiments with better batteries (larger capacity, faster recharging) but none of them are put into general use (the technology is either too expensive, or unstable (nobody likes exploding batteries))

So better batteries would benefit not only cars ... and maybe if notebook/electronics industry develop better batteries "first", cars may adapt some larger version of that ...