South Ossetia

Ok, I am not to blame. If people are talking about Olympics...
I sens that there will be a lot of hate mail towrds me, but I still want to start this topic. In order to take some heat off my persona, I will post an article by someone else that reflects my opinion.
Oh, and here's something you should enjoy or at least read:
http://exiledonline.com/war-nerd-south-ossetia-the-war-of-my-dreams/#more-270

I respect your opinion and this articles opinion but i am going to withhold jugdement of the situation intill the full story breaks or leaks or whatever

alls i know is that unfornately US news only reports things in USA POV and puts evertthing "Democratic" under a light and slaps angel wings on its back ( short version: makes them lok good)

ON the article:

dude seems way to excited about war but, considering i havent read other material from him I'll assume its a joke

Its very opinionated and sounds more like a blog to me

if its true then it adds a different perspective that am intrested in seeing....

Roman any chance of you posting any other articles on Georgia that have a similar point?

whut about those georgians christians who killed people in baghdad during the mongol invasion??????? who cares... The belgians have fought the dutch 100 years ago for independence and now we love each other and make funny jokes about each other
(like the fact that heineken is really bad beer)


this i find very funny and amusing (actually a bit shocking to, its a bit ignorant):

But they’re Muslims, which means they have to have their own Lego parliament and Tonka-Toy army and all the rest of that Victorian crap, and their leader, a wack job named Abashidze (Goddamn Georgian names!)

conclusion for his article: USA hates Russia?????

very weird article


EDIT: nice to see another article where people can make a huge discussion, always a time filler:P

USa always rivaled Russia the esy way o exlpain he relationship between russia and USa is in candy terms: The relationship is choclate covered tension with a creamy center of dislike
(becuase in politics hate is such a strong word)

dude seems way to excited about war
Possibly a joke or maybe... I guess it is something "new". Not suicide bombers or simple carpet/rocket bombing, but actual "fair" fighting.

Its very opinionated and sounds more like a blog to me
I believe it is more of a blog/community...

Roman any chance of you posting any other articles on Georgia that have a similar point?
Tons, but I am at work right now, so this will have to wait a bit... what is surprising is that Wikipedia actually is not THAT biased and is pro-west and pro-russian at the same time !

whut about those georgians christians who killed people in baghdad during the mongol invasion??????? who cares...
Well, actually it is a an important historical context. You cannot look at the Caucasus without looking back at history. I guess his main point is to tell that people in Caucasus were always pretty aggressive about their children, believes and territory. The ones who invaded them, well when times come, they will remember and will kick your ass. Always been and always will be. Well at least been like that for 1000 years. And yeah, I understand your analogy with Dutch and Belgian people, but after 1000 years of history - you simply cannot undo it in month. Plus you also have to keep in mind that powers such as Russia and US always spice things up in that strategic region. In addition, let's not forget that Belgium got their independence only because of English Empire and their pact of guaranteeing the Belgium independence. Who knows, maybe there would be still hostilities if England wouldn’t intervene...

nice to see another article where people can make a huge discussion, always a time filler:P
I think you have to thanks Mr. Saakashvili for this topic.

USa always rivaled Russia
Technically, it is very-very untrue. Just look 200 years ago, at the Nicholas' I and Alexander's II rule. USA and Russia had great relationship, just because British Empire was the common enemy. We even gave Alaska for free (well at least technically) .

Roman_Pope wrote:

In addition, let's not forget that Belgium got their independence only because of English Empire and their pact of guaranteeing the Belgium independence. Who knows, maybe there would be still hostilities if England wouldn’t intervene...

wel at first i like to apoligize for my mistake tis more like 200 years ago

thats a difference

and i think it was a deccision of any Great Power (like france and russia) in that time to leave lille belgium alone

and also our same language have made us happy friends aswel :-)

its actually strange that we established such good relations as belgium and the netherlands has always been different (protestant vs catholic, neutral during war vs fought in war)

i guess the knowledge of the fact that together we stand better, our same language, our look a like culture and good economics has brought us together so much

Why are you being so selfish and showing how the things should be done? Now, if you want we can open another topic on Belgium and Nethterlands subject.

Can you be pro-west and pro-Russia at the same time lol? (inless they provide the POV's of both am confuzzled)

when i said always i was being a youngster and talking in modern terms
also just as a note: I had a sign in my old school (elementary) that said in case of bombing the basement is to be used as a shelter (40-50 year old school building)

Looking back i find that amusing as most bombs could easily level a 5 story building made up mostly of stone concrete and wood

also the explanition of the excitiedness of the author help me understand a lil bit i thought his guy was weird and twisted lol (kinda still is but we kinda all are)

also to add a quote: (not exact) GW. Bush: Georiga has choosen the road of Democracy, and will not walk this road alone...

It seems they did.... just another screw up from the GWB Adminstartion

Pro-west and pro-Russia are such strong terms. Basically they are trying to be correct and show both sides of the coin...

ah ok unbiased is a word i didnt see the first time gotcha =] ama look into the article then

but this is another classic case of two Power Hungry Countries trying to control a a small country that sits on something expensive

I once stumbled upon a translation of an arabic article:
It said that Georgia doesn't have much of things to sit on. Not a lot of gas or petroleum, which is true. BUT! It is a strategic region for Russia, access to sea and the region itself. So the plan is to exchange the Caucasus region for Iran because Russia still supports the "Axis" state. Could be another conspiracy theory, but it would make sense. I guess we will have to wait until full story breaks or leaks.

but they "Sit" on a pipeline that pumps gas into USA making it a stratigeic point for Russia if they want to hit us where it will truly hurt

Actually, now, all the petrolium is pumped through other countries including Russia.

huh? when did that happen?

Well, Turkey for example has to get oil from Iran. Coincedence - I think not!
http://article.wn.com/view/2008/08/12/Conflict_stems_Georgia_oil_gas_pipeline_flows/ - sorry, I cannot access the full article...

"The closure leaves BP with a 100,000 bpd pipeline to Russia's Black Sea port of Novorossiisk or a railway line that could export up to 50,000 bpd via Georgia's Black Sea port of Batumi as the only available export options."
Anyways, I woudn't worry about that small pipeline, they will figure a way. Oil is not really an issue as in Iraq.
Same article - different source:
http://www.feed24.com/go/53258728

Roman_Pope wrote:

Why are you being so selfish and showing how the things should be done? Now, if you want we can open another topic on Belgium and Nethterlands subject.

I find The belgian and the netherlands history quite interesting

All I can say (no time to read all the posts and only half of the article, sao sorry if I'm totally out of context) is that it's all F***ed up.

Reason for this war that seems most likely to me is that Russia needs Georgia to stay the unstable and unreliable country it has been so far, in first row because there's oil pipeline going through - if not reliable enough most of the Europe (central Europe anyways) will have to rely on Russian oil which means a) money b) influence.

Plus they don't want a NATO country as their neighbors, either, and that's what Georgia is trying to become. For Russians Georgia's still "all their turf".

Major Zeman wrote:

. For Russians Georgia's still "all their turf".

hehe russians gangsters trying to protect the hood

Z, since when do you rely on laziness as an excuse. Have some respect and read at least the article before voicing your opinion. On the other hand, that is by far the most simplistic explanation provided by you. I am not saying it is totally untrue, "fucked up" sums it all, but you seem to leave out very important details.
It would be very hypocritical to say that Russia simply thinks that Georgia is its turf. Did we forget the velvet (was it Czechoslovakia or not?), rose, orange, etc revolutions staged and financed by the West? Let's dig deeper... Georgia got training from USA and Israel. Both have provided military strategy assistance, not to mention weapons training. Now, who doesn't want Georgia stable? It is no secret that Davit Kezerashvili is a former Israeli himself; Saakashvili is a US graduate lawyer and his wife is an American CIA (the same story as in Ukraine; coincidence?).
Like it was mentioned, oil is not the backbone of the story and conflict, unlike Iraq. There are many other ways for oil to be delivered to Europe. In addition, it was an utter lie - the pipeline was not damaged at all!
But it is not all! For you, it does look like another spheres of influence conflict, "Good Helpless Democratic Guy Georgia versus Bad Savage Fascist Guy Russia", but we tend to forget history, AGAIN! What do we do of the facts such as: the centuries of massacres Georgians committed against Ossetians? Ossetians still recall the Georgian massacres in the early 1920s. Georgia exterminated up to 8 percent of the Ossetian population! In 1990, there was another Ossetian rebellion where nearly 2000 people got killed. It is a lot of blood when your population is only 50000-70000.
And I am not even going to draw a parallel with Kosovo!

in my opinion russias always been a huge bully but they would be stupid to try to harm USA 1. because USA has many allies 2. USA has a LOT of nukes and other nuclear weaponry. 3. russia knows they could do so much better with USA as an allie but they never will because they are so stubborn. i mean look at usa...they got UK as a HUGE ALLIE which extends...the UK is allies with pretty much all of europe...if russia wanted to mess with the USA in an extreme way (im taliing nuclear warfare not some oil) then russia would end up a scrap heap. but thats just one poloks opinion.

1: WILK for all intensive purposes NATO is our allies but that doesnt mean they will join the fray if it breaks out

2: Russia most likely has much more in the was of nukes, and if nuclear war breaks out the world would be F***** nuclear winter torn up landscapes freaking crazy shit...

3: America is just as stubborn, we refuse to admit weare done in countrys even when we know we should be, Middle east , Nam , Germany (cold war west germany,east germany)

4: I agree with roman when he said that this is russias way of getting at NATO for backing revolutions

Roman_Pope wrote:

Z, since when do you rely on laziness as an excuse.
...

I wanted to post something little longer about my opinion on the situation, but since we're talking in these terms, I'll leave my reply to "OK, I'll get back to the topic when I have time to read it whole".

Sure thing...

well yes schickles i agree with the fact that america is just as stubborn...point being that both america and russia have many nukes together they could blow up the world (well apart they could blow up the world) it was proven however that america has more nuclear weaponry then russia at the moment. so basically if nuclear warfare came into play and america was against russia (or even with russia) we would be heading into nuclear winter. it would just seem however that 2 such huge powers should be more friendly then the world portrays it. true i know you cant be total friends with another country (trust and all) but better friends then they are now. they are mostly neutral to each other. so if nuclear warfare came out they could side either way.

what happens is described in Team America:

when Kim Jung Il didn't want to show the weaponinspector all of his palaces, the UN-person (Hans Brix) told Kim Jung Il that the UN would be very mad and would right a letter to Kim Jung Ill how mad they were.

And that's basicly the truth about UN and Nato and all other kind of organizations.

If it was another Country, let's say Azerbedjan that had invaded Georgia, UN-troops would have been there allready.

But now it's a big power that showed his muscles and noone dares to move, only say "bad Russia, you're a naughty boy"

I don't know what the real reason is in that region, but in former Yugoslavia Kosovo was accepted as a new region, why can't ossetia and abchazia be free regions too.

Political and military strategies go hand in hand sometimes...

wilk its more like America has more "Reported"

Uhm... just so we stop any further talk about who has more balls and blink...
I looked at official statistics and found out:
Russia has more active nuclear arsenal - about 5830 active nuclear bombs vs USA that has about 5735.
But that number is just active arsenal.
The actual stockpiles numbers are:
Russia - around 16000
USA - 11000
I'll just leave one link that summarizes it all, but all the stats say about the same...
http://thebulletin.metapress.com/content/c4120650912x74k7/fulltext.pdf

"When the US ambassador questioned the disregardance of earlier Security Council resolutions about territorial integrity, the threat and use of force, and the redrawing of territorial borders, the Russian ambassador asked where were the weapons of mass destruction, what about the threats to wipe Iran off the face of the earth, and what happened to your territorial principles when Kosovo declared independence?"
This is exactly the type of hypocrisy I was referring to...

erhmph..how about U.S.A :s Missile Shield Defencing system on Turkey and on Ukraine..maybe its one reason of war on SouthOssetia ..maybe Russia wanted to show some power of the Great Russia and now Russia made a reason to show some power with massive attacking forces so world can see and believe that Russia should not threat like nothing. just my 5cents..maybe im wrong..

YAIKSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!

Roman_Pope wrote:

Uhm... just so we stop any further talk about who has more balls and blink...
I looked at official statistics and found out:
Russia has more active nuclear arsenal - about 5830 active nuclear bombs vs USA that has about 5735.
But that number is just active arsenal.
The actual stockpiles numbers are:
Russia - around 16000
USA - 11000
I'll just leave one link that summarizes it all, but all the stats say about the same...
http://thebulletin.metapress.com/content/c4120650912x74k7/fulltext.pdf

No numbers of great powers like the ones described are fact. Never.

{AR}SOCKS wrote:

erhmph..how about U.S.A :s Missile Shield Defencing system on Turkey and on Ukraine..maybe its one reason of war on SouthOssetia ..maybe Russia wanted to show some power of the Great Russia and now Russia made a reason to show some power with massive attacking forces so world can see and believe that Russia should not threat like nothing. just my 5cents..maybe im wrong..

YAIKSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!

One part of that system is gonna be in my country.

Russia isn't very happy about it.

I'm not sure exactly why they don't like it, but them saying its gonna destabilize the balance of powers between US and Russia is just a poor excuse - every weapons expert will tell you Russia's rockets are far too advanced for the US system being built to be any effective against them.

Why would Russia care at all if the system would be built in the czech republic? it would seem kinda stupid for russia to get annoyed because I think they two countries don't want to have each other as rivals. Thats a recipe for disaster. Especially seeing as they are the two countries with the most nuclear weaponry. Thats just my opinion but i dont know what either of those countries is thinking right now

They actually were quite sharp in their reactions, making all kinds of little threats to prevent us accepting the offer. Same with Poland which is going to host other part of the system.

One of the threats said they were forced to aim their weaponry on us in reaction to this. Gotta love our Foreign Affairs Minister though - his official answer was "Our intelligence agency indicates Russia has their weapons aimed at us for quite a long time already, but it's still nice of them to officially tell us".

I think they don't want to use nukes on us, but they'll probably dislike the radar partially monitoring also their airspace as "side effect" (now US will know better about all those secret russian satellites launched in orbit). Perhaps that is why they are angry at us ...